Winnipeg Club Auction

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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:24 am

Hi Bill

Wow!! All kinds of unrelated points there all jumbled together.

What is a young bird? A bird banded in the calander year in which it is raced.

What is a yearling? A bird banded in the calander year previous to which it was raced.

What is an old bird? All birds banded previous to the year in which it is raced and includes yearlings. (All women are females, but not all females are women).

Seems very straight forward to me. I fail to see your point.

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:29 am

Bill Voulgaris wrote:...then the question would be why not...not no. ...


Now that is what I consider progressive (as opposed to stuck-in-the-mud)

Mike, remember Schulz in "Hogan's Heroes": "I see nothing..." :smile:
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:30 am

Hi Karl

I won't throw stones at the Winnepeg Club but will just ask one question, is their outright refusal to support the CU for the last 40 years another example of progressive thinking?

I do remember Sgt Schulz but fail to see the comparision. Young birds are not yearlings by any definition that I know and having them compete for a yearling award makes no sense to me. I have no problem with an open class or any class. If the Winnepeg Club has a class for reds only, no problem, but don't then turn around and crown a blue bar as the champion red.

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:00 am

Mike van der Jagt wrote:Hi Karl
I won't throw stones at the Winnepeg Club but will just ask one question, is their outright refusal to support the CU for the last 40 years another example of progressive thinking?
...

Hi Mike,
Perhaps "the CU" should ask itself the question: 'Have we done everything possible to make the Winnipeg club feel welcome?'

Mike van der Jagt wrote:...I do remember Sgt Schulz but fail to see the comparision. ..

Well, I think that you may not try hard enough to "see the point" Bill tried to make.

Mike van der Jagt wrote:...Young birds are not yearlings by any definition that I know and having them compete for a yearling award makes no sense to me. ...


You are absolutely right, Mike, that young birds are not yearlings but yearlings are also not "old" birds yet they are released together and compete in the same race. Bill's point is that young birds could and should be added and released with yearlings and "old" birds. That doesn't mean that such young birds would compete for a yearling award as little as "old" birds presently being released with yearlings compete for yearling awards. They would just compete in the same races.

I don't know how much better I can explain it. |**|
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:26 am

I think all of us would classify yearlings as old birds ( they lay eggs, raise young and everything else like an adult bird).....not all clubs are progressive enough to have a yearlings only race and also give an Award for the Champion Yearling....and an overall Champion Bird...If they were one and the same that yearling wins them both.
Enjoy the friendship and the pigeons!
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:31 pm

TMak wrote:I think all of us would classify yearlings as old birds ( they lay eggs, raise young and everything else like an adult bird)......

Ditto my young ones.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:54 pm

Hi Karl

Perhaps "the CU" should ask itself the question: 'Have we done everything possible to make the Winnipeg club feel welcome?'


As President of the CU for 2 years I bent over backwards to accomadate the Winnipeg Club and likely invested more time in trying to figure out what their issues were than any other individual club. The only answer I ever got was that it was an old personality conflict between individuals long gone from both organizations.

Besides that, in my opinion, the mandate of the CU is to serve the greater good of the hobby across Canada i.e. to create an enviroment on a national scale to promote the hobby. Like minded individuals and organizations support the National organization to help facilitate this national agenda, not to garner personal benefits. Since we are quoting people, how about this one "ask not what the CU can do for you, but rather, what you can do for the CU". JFK said something like that.

What you seem to be labelling as progressive thinking, I see more as selfish thinking. And I am certainly not singling out the Winnipeg Club. They are free to affiliate with whoever they chose. I am, however, extremely strong in my position that any Canadian racing enthusist or Canadian racing organization that does not support the CU is the exact opposite of progressive, by any definition of that word.

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:17 pm

Times change Karl and with talk like that you get the other club who want ONLY youngsters racing against youngsters. As it is the progressive clubs - say :
"The year on the band tells us how old it is and we have old bird races and yb races....until the rules change - I am good with the present rules. It doesn't make any difference to me either way....but I don't want to make the "workers in the club", jopbs any harder than they already are.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Well, Mike, I put myself into the shoes of the Winnipeg club members and invite you to do the same for a moment:
They get asked to join the CU and need to:
    pay yearly membership fees
    can no longer include their young birds in races in which yearlings and old birds participate
    change their way of calculating races, something they have been happy with

The above probably seems to be too big a sacrifice asked of them or else they would join. Tom, Klaus and you (and probably a lot of other CU old-timers) show in the posts above that you find it easier to say 'NO' than 'why not?' to an idea that I consider progressive.

This will be my last post on this. Enough said.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:08 pm

Hi Karl

Please reconsider:

This will be my last post on this. Enough said.


We may actually be getting close to uncovering and resolving an issue, that is possibly nothing more than a long standing misunderstanding.

For example, affiliation with the CU in no way stops a club from calculating their results in any way they wish. As I have stated on here previously, clubs get their results published in the yearbook flying breaking points and other "non-conventional" results calcualtions. Of course clubs wishing to participate in the national awards need to follow a common set of rules, but I believe that Winnipeg currently produces two sets of results now, one with their own method and one using straight velocity, so they could even fully participate in the National awards. Their choice.

Also, affiliation with the CU certainly would in no way restrict any club from racing young birds with old birds and including them in the same result also. This might be a logistical issue in getting the results posted to the database, simply because the programming will not allow it, but there is no rule against it and I am sure a resolution to the posting issue could be found.

Tom, Klaus and you (and probably a lot of other CU old-timers) show in the posts above that you find it easier to say 'NO' than 'why not?' to an idea that I consider progressive.


Karl, I think I have given you the wrong impression. I have said no to nothing except allowing a young bird to win a yearling award. I have no problem with anything else the Winnipeg Club does. Actually, I don't even care if they want young birds competing for yearling awards. It makes no sense to me, but if they want to call a young bird a yearling, why would I care?

Sorry if I appeared argumentative. It was not my intention. As far as Bill's post is concerned, the only point I disagreed with was calling a young bird a yearling.

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Halcanada » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:45 pm

What you seem to be labelling as progressive thinking, I see more as selfish thinking. And I am certainly not singling out the Winnipeg Club. They are free to affiliate with whoever they chose. I am, however, extremely strong in my position that any Canadian racing enthusist or Canadian racing organization that does not support the CU is the exact opposite of progressive, by any definition of that word.


Sheesh folks a bird wins a race, then deserves credit. I am opposed to old birds flying in the young bird series as I beleive that it will screw up the whole system. Unfair advantage. But a young bird competing against old birds? No brainer let them fly and take the losses, if any. London East Club, many years back. Did not have old birds I wanted to send so asked if I could fly young birds. 200 miler. Belleville. Everyone agreed. Laughed at the idea, said go ahead lose them. Shipped 5 and got 3rd 4th and 7th. They had been trained hard and they looked ready. The results have to be in an old yearbook somewhere. Maybe I got lucky? The same 3 did good in the young bird races but no world beaters. Any age races..not sure that would work in Canada but do not know.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:36 pm

My old bird team video , sorry for the language "tagalog". Can you tell which is 4 months old, 1 yrs old , 2 yrs old and a 3 yrs old. This is the magic of darkening..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-qc-A-C ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:23 am

Hi Mike - respectively I can't agree with your comment that you bent over backwards and spent considerable time in trying have Winnipeg join the CU. I do recall we had a couple of conversations totaling maybe 15 minutes and possibly exchanged an email or two but most of that was in discussing some of the past issues in regards to phone numbers on bands and such. It culminated in you adding the Winnipeg contacts/phone numbers/email to the CU website.

We have members of the Winnipeg club that are CU members and pay CU membership dues - but none have asked that we should join the CU. I belong to the Winnipeg Club and have voice as do all our members if they feel that it would make sense or if they feel that it would benefit to join then they can ask to table it for discussion. I do not make those decisions, the individual club members can - but none have asked. So let's drop this please.

I don't even care if they want young birds competing for yearling awards. It makes no sense to me, but if they want to call a young bird a yearling, why would I care?

Sorry if I appeared argumentative. It was not my intention. As far as Bill's post is concerned, the only point I disagreed with was calling a young bird a yearling.


Your definition:

What is a young bird? A bird banded in the calander year in which it is raced.

What is a yearling? A bird banded in the calander year previous to which it was raced.


So a bird banded in December 2012 and raced in May 2013 is an old bird?

A bird banded in January 2013 and raced in May 2013 is considered a youngbird.

By your definitions if I read them correctly Mike, correct me if I'm mis-reading.

That is why I kind of agree with Tom on this point. Here is an example of a young bird winning a yearling award.


How can anyone class a youngbird banded in December with a 2012 band and raced in May 2013 a youngbird? It is carrying a 2012 band - it has to be considered as a yearling if not where is the control. So by the ring it is carrying it can compete. But I think we can all agree by age definition it is a youngbird. Which is what Bobby is doing. He does not have 2013 bands on them - he has the previous year's band on the youngster.

To anyone talking about allowing old birds to race in youngbird races that is preposterous or all that jibberish about a red bird award being won by a blue bar, etc...again, silliness that makes no point or has little relevance to what is actually being discussed.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:55 am

Hi Bill

I talked with you a couple of times and one other member on at least three other occasions, and as far as I know, I met all your requests. I think I was pretty genuine and advocated quite strongly that I considered Winnipeg an important addition to the CU and would make every effort to do whatever it took to resolve past issues. Contacting one club four or five times in one year may seem like nothing to you, but considering the scope of the work required by a volunteer President, and the competing priorities for my limited time, it was more than an honest effort.

Unfortunately, even today, I really have no idea what the problem is with Winnipeg. I have to believe that it is historical baggage. Anyway, as a private citizen no longer affiliated with the CU BOD other than as a regular member and performing the odd volunteer task when asked, I have no further stake in what the Winnipeg Club does, so I am glad to drop it.

As to the issue with the young bird winning the yearling race, that is likely my misunderstanding. I read Bobby's comment to mean that he had banded the bird with a band from the current year, not an old band, so in other words, as it was three years ago, he banded the bird with a 2011 band and won the yearling award in the 2011 racing season. That is what made no sense to me and where I made the comparison to a blue bar winning the best red award. I stand corrected.

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Guido Madrusan » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:20 am

Bill, Bobby; is flying a bird banded in December 2012 with a current year band the following 2013 season as a yearling just a personal experiment ?? What is the purpose or the benefit or the concept of this whole thing???
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:12 pm

Hi Guido,

One reason is to upgrade my family of birds. For some people it's means buying proven expensive birds . But for me just race them in the highest level available and that's is old bird racing. But I just don't do that without studying my birds capability and if I can really do it. In young bird racing I already won 2 x 650 kms young bird race out of 3. So for my birds another 25 miles in a long day is not much of the different . In young bird race we race up to 540 kms in my loft , and with weather permitting and number of birds we race to our special race 650 kms. In old bird race , I have more chances I can race my birds in 1 of 2 , 400 mls or both every year. So far in 3 races I sent my birds in 400 miles , I only lost 2 birds . I placed 5th , 13th, 15th , 14 (2 day) and 34th (2 day) and 1 of young bird place 8 overall long distance by clocking twice in 400 mls. And I don't believed that hurting my birds too , because 1 of my young bird born Jan 2011 banded 2012 that I race in 2011 old bird won the overall champion last year. Here sister won 10th overall. If I do this in next 10 yrs , for me sky is the limit.. :grin:

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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:42 pm

Hi Guido, I will let Bobby answer as he is the only member trying this. I can tell you Bobby is a very good member and also a very good pigeon man. We are lucky to have him as a member and competitor. In Bobby's case he wishes to spend his summers with his young family so he is trying this accelerated method of testing both his youngbirds and old birds by flying them in the old bird races. So we accept the added competition and of course the entry fees which is critical to any club's survival. We see no need to impose any limits on competition. If we did restrict then it would more likely end in losing a valuable member as family should always come first. That is part of the problem with our sport today in keeping and attracting new and existing members. Time is precious and we all know that to race successfully, there is so much time and attention required to get to and stay at the top year after year in both old and young birds that it causes members to fall by the wayside or get discouraged, this is especially true for any club that has several top flyers in it as these flyers will put the effort in and the others will get discouraged or look for ways to limit competition to suit their situation with wacky rules etc. The more competition the better IMO. I had a young new flyer ask me a couple of years ago if he can come and see what I do everyday for a week before a long race. I told him he can if he wanted to but told him he would learn more if he came a couple of weeks in November thru January (off season before breeding) to really see what can be learned but I'm afraid I learned more about him as he was not interested in that, I explained to him that if he is willing to put in the work in the off season then I guarantee that he would be a successful flyer.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:05 pm

Hi Mike - I do consider you genuine.
And although we do not see eye to eye on some issues like you not thinking flyers phoning in their times for a race etc that does not mean that we are not on the same page on other matters. That's what makes things tick.

I do not have a problem with the CU, never have. I hope that is not the way it has come across, or maybe it's just what you feel, I'm not sure. I do think that the CU priorities can be fine tuned as I have mentioned in several of my past posts but that can be said for any organization. I do not have a problem with not having the races published..it is no big deal, again like I said members can apply for other awards if they wish like RPD, Choice Pigeon etc. or ask that we join but I do not see them doing so, so it must not matter. Again, I am not the Winnipeg Club, I am a member and can only speak for myself. I think the issue lies, just as it does for some other clubs around the country is that the value is not there or is not seen as being there. I think for Winnipeg the issue may be that we have not been a part of the CU for so long and it has not hurt so the current members may not see any reason to be a part now??

I strongly believe that there is a need for a National Organization and have ideas as to how it can best assist member clubs and would devote my efforts in helping in any way I can if I had more time, but at this moment in life I do not, hopefully down the road in the coming years maybe if all goes well.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Klaus Petzold » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:42 pm

Karl, Why do you wish to fly Y.B.'s in O.B. races. :???:
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Klaus Petzold » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:54 pm

Klaus Petzold wrote:Karl, Why do you wish to fly Y.B.'s in O.B. races. :???:


Karl your silence speaks volumes
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Halcanada » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:22 pm

I did years back because I had very few old birds left. Others do it for other reasons. Whats the difference? Sheesh read the posts. Old bands on early bred youngsters etc, Bobby C. Each has their own agenda.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 pm

Did really good in our last race yesterday 400 mls. Clock 4 young bird and a yearling ...


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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:54 pm

http://www.pipa.be/en/clubs/america/can ... lts/289505 ,

6th place , young bird cock out of my best breeder 400 "nest mate of 401" bird that I posted in eye sign X 432 hen , winner of 650 kms race.
22th place , yearling ,race her last year as a young bird twice in old bird race 400 mls 14th & 34th place "8th long distance" out of my 426 cock 5th overall ( 9 prizes out of 9 races)
30th place , young hen , raced 2 weeks ago in our 400 mls came home 2nd day at noon , out of my 401 cock that I posted in eye sign X 414 hen 1st overall young bird.
31th place , young hen , raced her last week also "400mls" came home 2 day at 7am , out of my cock 9992 " my day bird last year at 5 months 3 weeks old at 400 mls race X to his half sister "mother of 432 hen 650 kms winner".
37th place , young cock , half brother to my 22nd place , out of my 426 cock 5th overall ( 9 prizes out of 9 races).
39th place , old hen.

Note: still missing 1 old hen 5th last year "400 mls" and a young hen, 8 day birds out of 11 sent and might be 3rd overall average champion loft with small team with young birds.

BobbyC. ||^^
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:18 pm

PS , I sent a total of 8 young birds in our 2 x 400 mls race , 6 day birds , 1 young cock late 2nd day and 1 young hen still missing . For me it's about blood line and a very good system "Darkening System".

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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:18 pm

|||^^ , Bobby! ||^^ ||^^ ||^^
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