Winnipeg Club Auction

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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:58 am

I agree Tony - sometimes the BACK botton "does not" give you the REPLY that has been worked on....I have lost several big posts over the years and it is very frustrating....seems a glitch happens once in a while.
Enjoy the friendship and the pigeons!
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:35 pm

In our club the majority of the yb flyers darken to compete. When the first of us started using darkening about 15+ yrs ago we did so to able to fairly judge our yb's against their loft mates. The natural way was not a good indicator because of the feather, age of the different rounds etc. As more and more members saw the benefit and started darkening, the competition became better because then we could all race our youngsters fairly and give them a decent chance to prove themselves. Realistically is wasn't fair (or humane) to race yb's that were not in proper feather. Because of this we were able to extend the yb season regardless of the weather and have more enjoyment. Now fast forward to the last couple of years and some of our newer members, Bobby Cielos, Joe Belchoir, Robert Madalansakay and this past year Billy Cabrera have specialized in young birds and have shown us guys how to fly them. They have their own systems, some say they have their young birds on widowhood or on the nest, either way it doesn't really matter. All we know is that their birds are super healthy, motivated and are winning. They have taken it to another level. They have raised the bar. Others still breed very early for our part of the world, they use heat and lights and have their breeders down on eggs already, likely due to hatch in the coming week or so. What this all means is that for the rest of us if we WANT to compete with these guys then we have to make a decision and modify our system with part of our team to be able to do so. I know that we started thinking last fall how we would accomplish this...been thinking all winter, (lol) and I'm sure that I'm not alone - actually I'm POSITIVE that I'm not alone knowing the guys that compete in our club..but nonetheless what this all means is that for the fanciers that value and enjoy the healthy competition they will find a way and who knows maybe discover a whole new method in the process. We will have fun trying, and keep working on it..If you enjoy racing then of course you would want the season to last as long as it can and the darkening and other systems have accomplished just that...so I can't see a down side to it. Everybody has their own level of enjoyment and their own choice on what system if any they want to compete with, some fly just for fun flying in our club, we have a member that doesn't want a clock. He ships and times his birds with his watch and compares with everybody else..he is just as happy doing that and enjoys it just as much, but I can also tell you that he trains when he knows he needs to (read has to)..Bill



Without Darkening , I don't think we can compete with the big lofts here in Winnipeg. Me and my friend Joe Belchoir always talk about our plan ahead of time. We plan when to breed, to darken and to train our bird. Some times we decided to train hard early to keep them off balance or sometimes we just decided to take it easy and then prepare them in the long end and then I talk to all other guys about our plans. We also helping its other training our birds , same with basketing or bringing our clock to the club. But 2 years ago I decided to step up onces more by flying young bird team in our old bird race. I plan this for more than a year and have a very long talked to my friend Joe before I decided to try it. My plan is to fly them up to our 400 mls race. My first year did not have a chance to fly them in our 400 mls due to my work schedule but I learned a lot from that year and I adjusted the following year. Last year, my goal is to have a day bird in our 400 mls race. So before the 400 , I just sent my young birds in race B "shorter distance" up to 350 kms only. In our first 400 mls race , my white cock @ 5 months 3 weeks old on darkening placed 15th "day bird" with only 19 day bird , hard race ,and my second bird a BB hen 6 months old came the next day ,also clock. I shipped this BB hen again to our next 400 on eggs and clock her again the second day ,place 10 overall long distance. I do believe I shipped a total of 6 young birds and clock 2 , 2 came late and lost 2. And 1 of my BB hen that I also raced in our old bird race 2011 , won overall champion old bird 2012. My best bird also in 2011 old bird race is 1 of my young bird place 9 overall yearling .
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:11 pm

You guys in Winterbeg look at this competition thing in a way I wish all fanciers would. Nowhere could I detect even a hint of envy but just a love for competition. Keep it up!
It's really refreshing to read this post, Bobby, and thanks for it.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:23 pm

In Europe they are proving that these YOUNG DARKENNED pigeons are almost in a class by themselves and have top performances with them in the OB races. Because of rules in most organizations around the world, that do not allow YB's to race with OB's; the die hards breed youngsters in late December and band them with that years bands - and then compete with them as yearlings. I myself have had some very good performances with very late breds like this.
It would seem to me that if one wants to do it - that is the way to go....within the rules of the CU and various clubs.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:20 pm

It's sad to say that my good friend Joe moved out , out side the city. Pigeon racing will not gonna be the same for me , but racing must go on.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:36 pm

Yes Tom , I make my system simple as possible. Paired up late Nov. and hatch late Dec. using old band. With 24 hrs light during breeding , they molt like crazy once I wean them using natural light. After 3 months you have a young bird that look like yearling. I start training them as easy as possible . In our first race I put them in training so that they get to use of the trailer . I only send them in race B up to 350 kms before the 1st 716 kms (400mls) . And if some of them are not yet ready I wait for the next 716 kms before sending them.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:57 pm

Just an update to my young racing team . I sent 4 hens , the oldest is 6 months and 3 weeks old .Place 5th and 13th (day bird) in 716 kms (400 mls) old bird race . Two others young hens came 7am and noon the next day . They flew better than my old birds team . The 2 hens that place 5th and 13th are both sitting on eggs . Darken bird are best ||^^

BobbyC..
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:44 pm

|||^^ Bobby. It's good that your club is very progressive in this regard. ||^^ ||^^
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:41 pm

Thanks Dr Karl.. here is the link of the results under the name Cielos family loft..

http://www.pipa.be/en/clubs/america/can ... lts/284375 .
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:01 pm

I don't know what it has to do with the Club....Bobby is the on the progressive side breeding late breds to compete the NEXT year at 6 months old.
Bobby does your club allow youngsters 2013 banded to race with the old birds?
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:04 pm

Karl/Tom you are right, Bobby is a pretty innovative guy. Always trying new things to gain an edge. It's too bad he isn't flying yb's in the yb series this year because he is an incredible competitor and a very good pigeon man. In that race there were only 19 birds home on the day so hat's off to Bobby for sure.

In regards to Winnipeg allowing 2013 banded birds to fly in Old Birds, the answer would be yes BUT the bands would have to be either WPG, CU or AU to ensure their release to the fancier in January 2013 and not earlier. But in saying that I cannot see any yb's being banded in 2013 being able to compete when our races start in May. Physically I just can't see them being strong enough or with enough training under them to be able to start competing in May. They would have to start training in late March and April and the weather just isn't conducive for it. The conditions would have to be ideal that year to be able to allow it to happen I think and still not sure it could be done. A summer hatched bird at 3 months old is different than that of January hatched bird at 3 months. In our climate and yours. JMO
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:07 pm

Hi Bill; Congrats to you ( and Kenny) for winning and having a very good race too. It seems to me that Bobby's latebreds are only a few weeks earlier hatched than an actual 2013 banded baby.....and he pulls it off. I thought he did that so he could race his YB"S as OB's but I guess if you have no rule against it....He could race his January hatches in OB's too.
I know the guys in Europe are doing things like Bobby ( banding latebreds in Dec) so they can compete in OB races.....and they are doing better than OB's in many races.....So much can be said for youthful vigor and motivating first loves. :)
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:25 pm

Thanks Tom, it was nice to win that one. It meant allot for obvious reasons. I agree that although Bobby's were only a few weeks early than what I'm suggesting but a couple of things are to be considered. #1. we are several weeks behind in our schedule so that extra time helped Bobby this year, and #2 we can never guarantee that we would have rings available Jan 1. They are not dispatched from Belgium till the last week of December, it would be Russian roulette to bank on them ready for ringing Jan 1 as normally we do not receive them till mid January for dispersing so that is a month or so more of difference considering the delay in our schedule and the extra weeks to ring when the rings would be available. That is what I meant by conditions being perfect.
I guess we could ask for the rings to be posted earlier but still would be touch and go, but possible if more were interested in doing so. Could only help entries and revenue I guess. Food for thought.

Good luck to you and all the Edm members flying the 500 this weekend!
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:22 am

Hi Bill ,
The reason I want to race in old bird race is to spend more time with my kids during summer vacation. And I love young bird racing so why not enjoy racing young birds while still have time for my kids. For me it's a win win situation , specially I can race my young birds up to 400 mls , unlike in young bird race if we only lucky , we can ship them in 375 mls.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:32 am

TMak wrote:I don't know what it has to do with the Club....Bobby is the on the progressive side breeding late breds to compete the NEXT year at 6 months old.
Bobby does your club allow youngsters 2013 banded to race with the old birds?

Bill Voulgaris wrote:...In regards to Winnipeg allowing 2013 banded birds to fly in Old Birds, the answer would be yes BUT the bands would have to be either WPG, CU or AU to ensure their release to the fancier in January 2013 and not earlier. ...


That's why I think that the Winnipeg club is progressive, Tom, and obviously Bobby doesn't have "friends" in that club that would put the kybosh on him flying young birds in old bird races. Good for Bobby and the Winnipeg club! ||^^ ||^^
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bobby Cielos » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:36 am

Hi Tom , actually my bird that place 15th (day bird) last year was only 5 months 3 weeks old , born January. This is a half brother to my 13th place this year (same mother). 3 year ago my best bird also born January , clock 1st in my loft 3 races in a row all hard race up to 550 kms. He place 9th overall yearling in that year , better than all my old birds. Also last year one of young hen place 14th and 34th in our 2 X 400 mls race when she is 6 months and 6 1/2 months old , 8 overall long distance.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:51 am

Good for you Bobby...
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:35 am

3 year ago my best bird also born January , clock 1st in my loft 3 races in a row all hard race up to 550 kms. He place 9th overall yearling in that year


That is why I kind of agree with Tom on this point. Here is an example of a young bird winning a yearling award. If this is OK, why not let a cock win a hen award, or an old bird win a young bird award?

Having said that, I do think we are missing the boat on flying young birds and old birds separately. With the race calculation programs available today, they can be sorted any way we want with just clicking a couple of buttons. Nothing wrong with having a hen result, an old bird result, a young bird result and a yearling result as well as an overall result or any combination of the above.

Bobby raises a great point about sharing time away from the birds with other interests and non-pigeon oriented people (like family). Under the current paradigm, to fully participate, it pretty well requires 100% dedication with little opportunity for any kind of life outside pigeon racing. Some of us like it that way, but this aspect sure does not appeal to the masses, and keeps our membership numbers down.

Bill, I am a little surprised at your thoughts on early youngsters. I have trained birds in minus 40 degrees and 4 feet of snow on the ground. It never even slowed them up, in fact, I think they prefer it. Using the light system and old hens, I could have young cocks banded in January fully trained out and feeding big youngsters of their own by the first week of May. I certainly have no interest in doing it, by I have no doubt it could be done quite easily.

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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:23 am

I agree Mike, I personally see nothing wrong with any pigeons of any age competing in races. But the way we calculate races ( Winspeed) and the way the CU calculates awards ......It does not work.....The yb's in an old bird race are rejected and causes problems for the system. Hopefully, if the masses agree, these things will be changed and a pigeon will compete against another pigeon....But I hate to see pressure put on Race Secretaries to make their job tougher or cause them more problems.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Karl » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Mike van der Jagt wrote:...
That is why I kind of agree with Tom on this point. Here is an example of a young bird winning a yearling award. If this is OK, why not let a cock win a hen award, or an old bird win a young bird award?...

Why not split things down further? Why not give an award for best mealy, best BB, etc.?
As it is now we do give an award for best old bird and this includes all the mealies, BB, BC, cocks, hens and yearlings. What could be so terribly wrong with including young birds which is not just done in the progressive club of Winnipeg (perhaps they would not be quite as progressive if they needed to abide by all CU rules??) but in some European countries as well, obviously more progressive than permitted by members of our club or the CU, and this is regrettable.
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Klaus Petzold » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:18 pm

Hen awards are for hens
Cock awards are for cocks
Yearling awards are for yearlings
Old Bird races are for Old Birds
Young Bird races are for Young Birds

If one can compete with Young Birds in Old Bird races, then Old Birds should be allowed to compete in Young Bird races, same thing isn't it?
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:54 pm

Without getting into if Winnipeg is a progressive club....I would say that "Progressive" is a relative term and because most clubs are run democratically....ANYTHING can be changed for the masses....BUT history has proven many times over, that things rarely if ever change for one person. If it means that much to anyone.....never give up, keep trying to make others understand. If it is good for the sport - things will EVENTUALLY change.
As things stand right now - I would have never had to move my home and my life to enjoy this sport of racing pigeons.....20 years ago - it was move closer to Edmonton - or quit ! Even though I did move, I still preached that where one lives is not why they win.....and since the rules and boundaries were removed. Which IMO is the best thing for the sport.
IN MANY ways the CCRPA has been a very progressive club........
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Mike van der Jagt » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:12 pm

Tom.

You and I are starting to think too much alike. It must be time for a long vacation lol!!

Mike
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby TMak » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:32 pm

I hope to make it to Florida and hope to "discuss" the odd thing there. I am sure we will find something to disagree about down there. LOL
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Re: Winnipeg Club Auction

Postby Bill Voulgaris » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:12 am

Hi guys, to the comment about a yearling winning an Old Bird award: what exactly is a yearling? Are we to assume that all yearlings flying in a race are the same age? A yearling could be born in January the previous year and be 14 mos old when the races start in May in it's "yearling" year or could be born in August or September or later and be only 9 months, 8 months or whatever. A bit of a difference. Are not yearlings allowed to compete for Old Bird awards in "Old Bird" races how many clubs have separate releases for Old bird and Yearlings? Not sure how yearling awards are calculated in other clubs but here they have to provide their best 5 results from a selection of races from 200 miles to 300 miles AND they MUST have a prize from the designated Yearling Race from 300 mls to qualify first and foremost. Now we do not have separate releases from all those stations for the Yearlings, they are let up with Old Birds, I may be wrong in assuming and don't know how each individual club calculates their yearling awards but I would not think that they are released separate so aren't yearlings racing with old birds and often times arriving with Old Birds. Our Yearlings can win the Old Bird awards like Ace Middle Distance, Speed Bird or Ace Long and Ace Overall awards (the yearling 300 points they earn only count for calculating their yearling point totals) in all of your individual clubs can't a yearling win any of those awards, or an Old bird race?

When I first started racing, Omer gave me specific advice and I have lived it to this day with the odd exception..he told me if you want good successful birds, race your young cocks up to 200mls, your yearlings up to 300 miles and then as Old birds they will not let you down, they will be mature and developed enough properly to handle racing for years to come and in the breeding loft. Resist the temptation to push your youngbird and yearling cocks chasing awards, they can do it but it will come at a cost later down the road. Push your youngbird hens to test the breeding, the brothers of the best hens will be your better old birds if they have the smarts to go along with it. The smarts you can detect.

The original comment about a yearling winning an old bird award should be looked at for Youngbirds not yearlings - are all youngbirds in a race really the same age? are some more mature than others because of the light/dark system? Where do we draw the line? I think it makes more of a difference in youngbirds but I do not hear anyone suggesting that that should be looked at. Separate results for different systems (light/dark vs natural) or ages (1st , 2nd or 3rd round) of youngbirds etc....

Do we really all have that much time on our hands or do we all love to debate as much if not more than flying.

Maybe someone should put in front of the CU that the bands should not only have the year on them but each quarter should have it's own color or identifier, so for example 2013 J-A (for Jan- April) or 2013 M-A (May-August) so that all yb's are competing against birds roughly their same age. Would be a bugger to administer - releasing the bands for use I mean, but wouldn't that make things more fair if really meant that much. Our youngbird race schedule has 2 races every weekend, a longer and shorter. Most flyers put their older ybs in the longer race and their younger ones or ones they are working back in into the shorter race, or at least that is what we do because we only darken the 1st 2 rounds, the rest are on natural so they can't compete against the older darkened rounds in the longer race once they start moulting.

We use a spreadsheet to calculate the results and all I would have to do is add a column and hide it but would be able to sort anyway you want. Sure it may be extra work but if that is what it would take and that is what the masses would want then the question would be why not...not no. But what is wrong with a yearling winning an old bird race or award against all yearlings and old birds, in old birds what aren't separate awards given then for 2 yr olds, 3yr olds etc...I think the answer is because of competition. I think we can all agree that society today wants to do away with hurting the feelings of others...just look at the way kids sports programs are run today. I remember as a kid competing for hockey or soccer teams the dreaded day when the rosters were posted and remembering the emotions some of my friends had when they didn't make the team...but I don't remember their parents taking issue and wanting everyone to make a particular squad or tier.

Awards are and should be for those that win them fair and square against the competition put against them. IMO
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